Video - In an Exclusive Interview with the Secretary General of the World Council of Churches (WCC) Reverend Professor Dr. Jerry Pillay:

Our role in this time of conflicts and wars must be taken very seriously as to how we can become instruments of goodwill and peace

Within the activities of the Fiftieth Year of the Middle East Council of Churches (MECC) Founding, the Secretary General of the World Council of Churches (WCC) Reverend Professor Dr. Jerry Pillay, visited Lebanon during last March, in solidarity with the Lebanese and Eastern people amidst the difficult security, social, economic and health conditions that the region is witnessing, as well as in order to Pray with the Church Families and listen to their challenges and aspirations.

As part of this visit, the team of the MECC Communication and Public Relations Department made an exclusive interview with Reverend Dr. Pillay. The interview focused on several issues related to the path of Christian unity, the challenges of Ecumenical work, and consolidating the Christian presence in the region, in addition to various Theological and Ecumenical topics.

- In light of all developments in the world and the Middle East, what did we achieve until today regarding the issue of Christian unity?

In the Middle East itself, we have been working quite a bit with regards to the Palestine-[Israel] situation. We've gone as World Council of Churches (WCC) to deal with the issue in Gaza. We've been asking for a ceasefire.

I've met with the Palestinian President, I've met with the [Israeli] President, I've met with the heads of Churches in Jerusalem, trying to seek ways in which we can establish peace in Palestine-[Israel]. We hope that the work that the World Council of Churches has done in that has incited at least some meaningful considerations for a ceasefire and for humanitarian concerns, for the freedom of religion and the removal of the impositions of restrictions on Christians and Muslims, especially during the celebration of the holy events. We also are mindful of the situation and the need to deal with people's trauma after and now still during this war, but more particularly for people who have lost so much of lives, of property, their livelihood, and everything that has been part of their lives.

We are looking at possibilities of working at healing and trauma counselling and looking at how reconciliation may be worked at in terms of reconciling the different people. So we have been quite extensively involved in the [Israel]-Palestine situation, but the Council of Churches has been involved in Iraq, we have been involved in Lebanon…, and my visit here to Lebanon is partly entitled to bring expressions of solidarity, but also to journey with the people here in the context and to ask how can the World Council of Churches work with the Middle East Council of Churches, which we commend the work that they are already doing, but to ask how from a global context we can amplify the work and the concerns in the Middle East itself.

So we have a lot of programs in Palestine and [Israel], for example. We have the Ecumenical Accompaniment Program, which is a very strong and solid program that has been running for many years now, and that is to help us to get people from other parts of the world to come and get a taste of an experience of what is happening in the Palestinian context and to be able to take that to their own particular countries and gain support for allowing people to come to be more aware of the facts of the situation. So the Council has been very, very involved with the Middle East context. It is one of the most trouble-torn regions in the world, and we are committed to continuing our journey of working with the people in the Middle East.

- Reverend Dr. Pillay, what are the challenges of Ecumenism today?

Well, the challenges are numerous. The one issue is how do you bring Churches to a wider level of commitment. We do realize that Churches seem to focus a lot on confessionalism, that the sense of identity of Churches becomes even more deeply ingrained, and we ask the question of how do we actually get Churches to be more deeply committed to Ecumenical movements and to get the spirit of Ecumenism in the heart and in the actual life and living, so that Ecumenism does not become a sidekick of the Church, but that Ecumenism becomes a very living way in which the Church does its work and witness in the world. So that's one of the struggles, how committed are Churches to Ecumenism itself.

The second is obviously the whole contextual issues in which we find ourselves in, whether it is in one context or whether in a global context. There are numerous challenges. We have the issues of poverty and hunger and starvation that continues to be in excess.

We have the situation of climate change, and that is taking the world by storm at the moment. No pun intended, but that's precisely what it is, because we are talking about a climate emergency, and how do we as Christians and people understand these issues and relate to them. So it's a big challenge for Ecumenism to get people to be more aware and to work with these factors.

How do we work with people with disabilities? How do we work with indigenous peoples? How do we deal with these issues of race and decolonization? How do we deal with the issues of secularization? And how do we deal with the issues of freedom of religion? Because there are many parts of the world where religions are being prevented from exercising their faith, whether it is about Christians or whether it is of other religions as well, and the World Council of Churches stands for freedom of religion.

So there are numerous factors, and of course not only the interest but also the financial commitment to Ecumenical work also becomes a challenge in these days.

- From here, how can we together work to achieve Christian unity?

I think firstly we need to be brought into a level of commitment, as I've already said. The commitment must be an Ecumenism of the heart that says we want to build relationships, we want to deal with the issues that we are facing in the world and even in our context, and these issues are issues that are not manageable for one Church to deal with. We need Ecumenical organizations and we need to participate with Ecumenical organizations in order to deal with these global realities and the wicked problems of the world.

So we need commitment to, one, unity, two, to deal with issues of injustices, systemic injustices. We need the commitment to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ together. We need to say, how do we as Churches and Christians come in the name of Christ to deliver good news in bad situations?

So commitment is essential at different levels, and we are asking Churches to be able to bring into their particular domain and jurisdictions and denominations the deep-seated understanding and rootedness of what it means to be Ecumenical.

- Reverend Dr. Pillay, amidst wars and conflicts, how can we keep the sustainability of Christians in the region and in the world?

Well, wars and conflicts unfortunately tend to divide all people, and even Christians are not exempted from that. One of the things that we have been seeing in recent times is how Christians have become more divided because of the wars, for example. We see in the situation of Ukraine and Russia how Orthodox Churches and other Churches have actually become more divided and the unity becomes threatened because they have been influenced by political ideas and ideologies, political interests, supporting states, and supporting politicians.

It's not true in every place, but by and large what we are seeing today is the instrumentalization of the Church by political parties and political people and states, and that's becoming a danger. So in the midst of all of these, Churches need to come forward. We need to understand the dynamics of wars. We need to understand the dynamics of violence. We need to ask how do we engage these. We need to understand that violence is no way to resolve the issues that we face in the world today, that we must come to the table and have dialogue.

Dialogue is the way in which we can, in a peaceable way, be able to talk to one another and find solutions to move forward. Unfortunately, we're living in a climate where many people think violence is the way to resolve problems. Even when violence ends, we have to gather people together to ask how do we live together? What can we do to move forward?

So the question is why not do it now rather than do it later when thousands of lives have been lost, property has been damaged, places have been flattened, and the world is in turmoil? So it is an important thing for Churches in this context of violence to preach and proclaim peace, to stand up for peace, to advocate peace, to be peacemakers, to understand what the Bible tells us about blessed are the peacemakers for they shall inherit the earth.

What then is the role of Christians? So let us be drawn to the issues of just peace. Let us be drawn to the issues of creating a world that is better for all people and all creation. Therefore, our role in this time of conflicts and wars must be taken very seriously as to how we can become instruments of goodwill and peace.

- Hence, what is your message for the young generations?

The younger generation should learn from what is happening right now, do not repeat the mistakes of the past or the present, and ask what can we do to participate and contribute to creating a better world for all people. Young people bring in new visions, young people bring in new aspirations, young people bring in a new understanding of what it means to live together, young people have greater access to use in social media, young people are actually fantastic in advancing messages. So young people should play a role in capturing the positive and the good and being able to spread that to the ends of the earth.

Young people should take an interest in climate change issues and become advocates for that. Young people should become voices for justice and ask how can we use the technology and social media to be able to advance the cause for justice, to speak out against injustices. Young people have become a movement, and as a movement they can make a change, and young people can create a new society, young people can inspire new ways of thinking about things.

I find particularly that young people think about faith on a different level, they think about faith as a lived experience. How is God relevant to me in my world today? What is God doing to change the world?

Young people become despondent because of suffering and the wars and the conflicts that they see, and they ask very difficult questions, but often those are very spiritual questions. I personally believe that young people express a very deep spirituality, but sometimes not the kind of spirituality that our fathers and our mothers or their fathers and mothers have expressed, because it's not a spirituality of just going to Church every Sunday, or sitting down and reading the scriptures, which is important, but it is a spirituality of life. How do we treat people fairly? How do we respect each other? What are the differences we have? And how do we live with differences?

They bring in a new spirituality that speaks about togetherness and relationship building, but yet also young people need to also be cautious, because the advancement of technology and the digital world sometimes takes us out of social relationships and people's skills. We need to say, be mindful of that, but we have the opportunity and the potential to contribute to creating a better society.

- Reverend Dr. Jerry Pillay, on a Theological side, how is Ecclesiology seen in unity?

Ecclesiology is an important factor because it becomes part of Church life and Church order and the way Churches express themselves. But sometimes Ecclesiology can be a hindrance and a prevention for Ecumenism to actually be advanced progressively, because what often happens is that Churches bring in their Ecclesiology into the context of seeking Christian unity. What happens in such an environment is that if it is not used carefully and cautiously, if it is not used wisely, it can bring more divisions than togetherness.

So Ecclesiology is important. We do not dismiss that or undermine it. But Ecumenism goes beyond Ecclesiology. Ecumenism speaks about focusing on Christ, focusing on the world, focusing on how God calls us to build a different world. So God is not calling us to build a Church, as important as that may be, and the Church is important to the lives of Christians. We do not dismiss that.

But through the Church, God wants to build a world. God wants to change the world. God wants to save the world. Sometimes I think we forget that as Church, because the expressions and the themes from the Bible speak more about the kingdom of God, and that is the focus.

Even the church needs to focus on the kingdom. The Church needs to point to the kingdom that is already with us but still coming. But sometimes we think the Church is the kingdom, and that is part of the mistake. It is a taste, a banquet of what is to come in the real celebration. So therefore we need to ask, how does what we do as Church become building blocks to create something better, rather than become instruments that prevent us from fulfilling what God has called us to do, and to purposefully and intentionally be able to do that as servants of Christ?

- On the other hand, are the Trinity and Christ the only passage towards unity? or are there other factors?

Well, the Trinitarian concept is really the Christian concept and understanding and summary of our faith, that as Christians we believe in the one God but expressed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For us to accept the Trinitarian formula is an important part because it describes the substance of our faith. So it is an important element to who we are and what we believe as Christians.

Some people emphasize God, some people emphasize Jesus, some people emphasize the Spirit, and this happens within different Church traditions and denominations. But the fact of the matter is that we always have to talk about the Trinitarian concept and that is essentially the substance of our faith. But is it the only way to change the world?

If we believe that God is in charge of this world, if we believe that we are trying to make a world that is what God intends and designs and desires it to be, then that for us as Christians is the basis from which we work. But when we use that as a basis, we are not being exclusive. We are also giving consideration to people of other faiths. We are also giving consideration to people even of no faith.

We are asking the question of how can we work with all of these people. But we work from the premise of our own faith, which may be as one describes it, a Trinitarian-based faith. We work from the position of our own faith. But we understand that not everybody else is on the same level as we are, shares the same faith as we do, has the same understanding of God as we do. So there must be a sense of openness to that. But for us as Christians, it is important that we understand the substance of our faith, which leads us into working in changing the world.

- Reverend Dr. Pillay, what are the Christian morals and values that Ecumenism relies on to promote its movement?

Justice is a very important aspect. The Ecumenical movement was based on the fact of unity, calling Christians to unite together, to deal and address the big global issues in the world. But justice - and the reaction and working against injustices - is an important component in that.

So justice, peace, reconciliation, unity, humility in what we do, all of these are important principles and characteristics that define who we are and what we should be doing as people of faith, but more particularly even in the Ecumenical movement. Respect is a key thing, that even though we may not agree with each other's views and may disagree with certain things, but how do we respect one another even if we do not accept what they say? That is what ecumenism is all about.

In Ecumenical work, as a Council of Churches, we provide safe spaces for people to come and be able to share and express themselves from the world and the thought patterns that influence their lives and speak to their realities, and to put it on the table and say, this is me, this is what I believe. It may not be what you believe, but how do we talk about this together? So we create safe spaces, and that's part of our value culture, is that we create safe spaces and equal spaces for people to be able to come and express themselves and learn together, so that when we learn together, connecting with different ideas and different world experiences of different people, we learn to find reconciliation, we learn to find trust, we learn to develop hope, we learn to work together to build a better community and world.

- What is the spirituality that the Ecumenical movement is relying on?

Spirituality is the spirituality of life. If spirituality is concerned about growing in faith in terms of knowledge of God, reading the Word, praying, those are important components to Ecumenism. But spirituality also has to do with service, and service means how do we serve the world in Christ?

Some people tend to separate them. The story of Mary and Martha in the Bible tells us that each were doing different things when Jesus came into their home. One went out and sat at His feet, the other went out to serve Him.

Both were important in the ministry, and so spirituality composes all of those. Sitting at the feet of Jesus, learning, praying, reading, writing, but also spirituality means service. It means going out and seeking justice and campaigning for justice, dealing with the realities of the world, helping people to champion their rights, working against authorities and oppressors, and working for a new way of life and living for those who actually have been deprived and denied of life in their situations.

So spirituality is broad. Spirituality is God turning to the world. Spirituality is me turning to assist the world through God. Hence, spirituality is a fullness of the understanding of spirituality. Sometimes I think people fall short of understanding spirituality in that way. But it is a more holistic concept in terms of understanding that life and spirituality are connected deeply.

- Reverend Dr. Pillay, what is your message on the occasion of the 50th Year of the Middle East Council of Churches (MECC) Founding?

I wish to congratulate the Middle East Council of Churches (MECC) on its 50th Anniversary. I am mindful that it's been longer in terms of its reality, but constituted I'm told 85 years, but 50 years officially constituted as the Middle East Council of Churches. I wish to congratulate the MECC on this wonderful occasion of its celebration of its 50th Anniversary.

I am thankful for the work that they have been doing in the past years and even so now. The Middle East Council of Churches has always worked in difficult circumstances because the situation in the Middle East has for a long, long time, over many decades, been the most troublesome place in the world, really, because of factions and outside influences and all the tensions that we face. In the midst of all of that, the Council has remained faithful, the Council has remained in service, and the Council has continued to do its programs.

Yes, of course, everything is contextual, and the needs within this particular context demands certain kind of focused activities, and the Council has managed to find those focused activities, and they're doing that in different ways. I think one of the things that we spoke about is the work in the diaconal ministry, which is important, and especially in this context in the Middle East, that is so much needed. But of course, the work on building on Theology, the focus on building on unity, I'm pleased to see the Council has wonderful collaboration with the Churches in the region.

I'm pleased to see that in Lebanon, Churches are working together, and we would like to see them work more strongly and in a very committed way to asking the bigger question of how can we, as all Churches put together, work together so that we can be strengthened in our ability to make a difference in the Middle East itself.